getting boosted... and i need help

[ilida of cola]

i havent gotten called yet to get a price for myself but from what i hear anywere from 100-200 dollars. and im looking at the M62 from the nissan xterria/frointer

mmm well i have not yet priced a turbo kit for the KA so i would not know. i belive that it might be more but not much more. the thing is, is that i feel and have read (how true i dont know?) that the SC route is going to be more relieable and not so harsh on the motor. i could be wrong and someone plese tell me if i am but i feel that this way might be easier to install and a little nicer on the motor and just the place i want to be for power.. i dont know all in all so that is the point of the thread. to see what you guys think if this would be a good thing to do and if i missing anything for the set up.

illida where did your post go... damnit you had some good points!!!!! put it back!

I don't know know where it went?
I said that supercharging may end up costing more, and if not, it will be around the same price range as turbocharging.

even if you spend a bit more money on a turbo set up, you'll be much more happy with the power return than if you spent that same amount of money on an sc set up.

as far as the sc being more reliable and not so harsh on the motor... i dont know. sc's put a lot of strain on the engine because they receive their power directly from the crankshaft via pulleys. it also means they take power away from the engine to power themselves. but who cares, i guess, if you've got instant boost that increases with RPM and basically at your foot, (idling or not, just not at full boost at idle haha ). but if you think about it, if you directly connect some type of power source to the engine, it's obvious any long term application of force on the crankshaft won't do the engine good, and on top of it, when you're pretty much continuously putting this strain on the crank, shit happens. you can see how this would cause mechanical failure of the engine itself.

i don't know. if you're talking reliability and efficiency, turbocharging wins, in my opinion.

P.S.

are people changing your mind already?? haha. come on. i know you've got more fight in you. :]
who would have known this would be a turbo vs. sc argument?

 

[slidewayz240sx]

Hmmm now this is interesting...


I have a non turbo SR20DE...all the 2 liter no the turbo

http://www.boosthead.com/product.php

 

[ilida of cola]

^ those require a substantial amount of amperage for the power they claim they make. if you run it on one battery, you can run the car hard once only before you have to change the battery. you need like a 500 amp alternator just to manage 7 psi. if we're comparing different types of superchargers, i would not recommend electric. horribly insufficient.

 

[slidewayz240sx]

^ those require a substantial amount of amperage for the power they claim they make. if you run it on one battery, you can run the car hard once only before you have to change the battery. you need like a 500 amp alternator just to manage 7 psi. if we're comparing different types of superchargers, i would not recommend electric. horribly insufficient.

haha yeah i read that. Definitly not gonna waste 1600 to get 15 seconds of fun. Im just gonna put a red top in it for 300 more and call it a day :bigthumbu

 

[Fairlady280z]

clear your PM box dude

 

[slidewayz240sx]

me?

 

[Devil Man]

I don't know know where it went?
I said that supercharging may end up costing more, and if not, it will be around the same price range as turbocharging.

even if you spend a bit more money on a turbo set up, you'll be much more happy with the power return than if you spent that same amount of money on an sc set up.

as far as the sc being more reliable and not so harsh on the motor... i dont know. sc's put a lot of strain on the engine because they receive their power directly from the crankshaft via pulleys. it also means they take power away from the engine to power themselves. but who cares, i guess, if you've got instant boost that increases with RPM and basically at your foot, (idling or not, just not at full boost at idle haha ). but if you think about it, if you directly connect some type of power source to the engine, it's obvious any long term application of force on the crankshaft won't do the engine good, and on top of it, when you're pretty much continuously putting this strain on the crank, shit happens. you can see how this would cause mechanical failure of the engine itself.

i don't know. if you're talking reliability and efficiency, turbocharging wins, in my opinion.

P.S.

are people changing your mind already?? haha. come on. i know you've got more fight in you. :]
who would have known this would be a turbo vs. sc argument?

oh no dear, i still think that im going to go SC it just feels like something that im interested, i dont like to keep arguing. i feel that there are both pro and cons about both. and i didnt think that the SC being powered by the crank may put some stress that it is not used to and your right it may fail on me. but to say that the turbo doesnt do anything to the motor and is more effeicent i cant belive that. but i do think that yes it does take some power from to motor to power the SC, but i think the back pressure and resitance from the turbo robs the motor of power too... so all this being said i think that im still going go with the KA24DE-R (r =SC so i found) and when i do this i will try to post as many pics and what not. hopefully nick can be there and he can take the pics and i can tell you how i put it togther and then shortly after how the car blew up cause i did something wrong haha!.. also the other reason that im going to build it this way is cause it will be different from what others have done and being different is what i like to be!

oh and i cleaned out my pm box...

 

[ilida of cola]

I didn't say the turbo doesn't do anything to the motor as far as strain goes. I simply stated that I don't believe superchargers are not as hard on the engine, like you seem to think so.

As far as efficiency goes, I will not even argue with you. You are extremely misled if you believe supercharging an engine is more efficient. Of course there is an added resistance with a turbo. You're essentially adding another obstacle for exhaust gases to overcome. Anytime you have forced induction, you're dealing with some kind of resistance where it takes engine power to get it going, unless you're talking nitrous or something. Picking the correct size for your application will help with cleaning up many issues with turbos. But even with that all that, it's much less than what a supercharger would take from an engine.

I am not disagreeing with you for wanting to supercharge your engine. Whatever, it doesn't matter to me either way. But your pros for going sc are not in conjunction to facts. If you said, I know supercharging is not as efficient as turbocharging, and blah blah blah, but I still want to do it to be different, then I'd say yay, go you. But you're saying the exact opposite. You're saying you're doing it because it is more efficient. If that's the case, then we'd see a hell of a lot more cars with superchargers than turbochargers nowadays.

Either way, good luck. Report to station when you get it going. I'd like to see the pictures.

 

[Devil Man]

I didn't say the turbo doesn't do anything to the motor as far as strain goes. I simply stated that I don't believe superchargers are not as hard on the engine, like you seem to think so.

As far as efficiency goes, I will not even argue with you. You are extremely misled if you believe supercharging an engine is more efficient. Of course there is an added resistance with a turbo. You're essentially adding another obstacle for exhaust gases to overcome. Anytime you have forced induction, you're dealing with some kind of resistance where it takes engine power to get it going, unless you're talking nitrous or something. Picking the correct size for your application will help with cleaning up many issues with turbos. But even with that all that, it's much less than what a supercharger would take from an engine.

I am not disagreeing with you for wanting to supercharge your engine. Whatever, it doesn't matter to me either way. But your pros for going sc are not in conjunction to facts. If you said, I know supercharging is not as efficient as turbocharging, and blah blah blah, but I still want to do it to be different, then I'd say yay, go you. But you're saying the exact opposite. You're saying you're doing it because it is more efficient. If that's the case, then we'd see a hell of a lot more cars with superchargers than turbochargers nowadays.

Either way, good luck. Report to station when you get it going. I'd like to see the pictures.

mmmm i like you(non sexual), your smart and make good points. i have been looking and i guess yes your right the turbos are more efficent than the superchargers. Well now the question is, do any of you guys know how much more effecient the turbos are, cause if they are just a little bit more i think that i will do it just cause its different, but if the percentage is much greater than i will go turbo. how can you figure out the difference of the SC and the Turbos...and i havent fully priced out a turbo kit how much does something like that go for? thanks

 

[Choku_Dorian]

slap a ball bearing turbo on there(t25-t28), get fmic, exhaust manifold, down pipe, exhaust, fuel pump, sr injectors, put ITB's on that hoe get it tuned by enthalpy or an XAT dyno tune and be happy.

no one that i know of locally has ITB's on a ka yet, with a fast spooling turbo you would have amazing throttle response, and it would be different.

 

[ilida of cola]

mmmm i like you(non sexual), your smart and make good points. i have been looking and i guess yes your right the turbos are more efficent than the superchargers. Well now the question is, do any of you guys know how much more effecient the turbos are, cause if they are just a little bit more i think that i will do it just cause its different, but if the percentage is much greater than i will go turbo. how can you figure out the difference of the SC and the Turbos...and i havent fully priced out a turbo kit how much does something like that go for? thanks

I wish there was some simple percentage to show how much more efficient turbocharging is from supercharging, but that really depends on too many variables like what kind of numbers you want to run, how much control you want to have over boost, what the car is being used for....etc. Way too many things. Generally speaking, it's a substantial enough to see more cars turbocharged than anything else.

 

[Devil Man]

mmmm what to do what to do... i will think about this than and see if i can get a kit that is used or something like that cause i dont want to spend an arm and leg for it all. i can see what you mean and i wish that there was a percentage but yea all those X's make it hard to pin point it. so what size turbo would spool up fast and make me oh whatever really like 220ish or so thats all im looking for for now. and also what mani would you recomend over another and im going to need a crash corse on turbo's and all the terminalgy.. like down pipe, waste gates, recirculated, the elbow pipe that i cant think of the name and anything else that is needed to make it work? thanks!

 

[240SicknessX]

I just read Corky Bell's book titled Supercharged!. If you have any interest in super charging you car you should read it. I was going to read Maximum Boost this weekend which is another book written by bell which is focused on turbocharging. Read and understand both of them and you will be able to make a smart decision on whether a compressor driven from the crank shaft or a compressor driven by a turbine is the better solution.

There is a plethora of formulas in both books that use basic mathematics which will illustrate the power loss in between a turbo and a supercharger. Not to mention it will teach you how to choose a compressor that best suits your needs.

Another good book to read on turbocharging is titled "Street Turbocharging". It can be found at boarders. Of course the basic concepts of forced induction in between the 3 titles I have mentioned are a little repetitive it is good to read and pound it into your head.

 

[ilida of cola]

^ I agree. Buying good books like the ones 240SicknessX suggested will answer a lot of your questions. You'll have a much better understanding by reading about what you'd like to do instead of asking other people, as answers can sometimes be biased.

I have an entire book of nothing but formulas on performance, efficiencies, loads, power, work, etc., of NA and force induced engines, but it's difficult to calculate some, not all, of these due to the fact that you need certain information that may be difficult to obtain on your own. You won't be using them or anything, but it's cool to see what's involved.

 

[240SicknessX]

^ I agree.

but it's cool to see what's involved.

Im reading "Scientific Design of Exhaust and Intake Systems" and my head hurts. Im trying to time this sound wave entering the combustion chamber while my cams are in overlap allowing a 100% fresh charge to go into the cylinder among other thigns. Im only on page 47.

 

[m4nfred]

t25 + ebay manifold + sr smic = cheap fast spooling hp

^this guy sounds like he knows wut hes talking about


and an fmu...for fuel ...lol.....

 

[Devil Man]

I just read Corky Bell's book titled Supercharged!. If you have any interest in super charging you car you should read it. I was going to read Maximum Boost this weekend which is another book written by bell which is focused on turbocharging. Read and understand both of them and you will be able to make a smart decision on whether a compressor driven from the crank shaft or a compressor driven by a turbine is the better solution.

There is a plethora of formulas in both books that use basic mathematics which will illustrate the power loss in between a turbo and a supercharger. Not to mention it will teach you how to choose a compressor that best suits your needs.

Another good book to read on turbocharging is titled "Street Turbocharging". It can be found at boarders. Of course the basic concepts of forced induction in between the 3 titles I have mentioned are a little repetitive it is good to read and pound it into your head.

wow very interesting im going to see if i can get these from my libary, if not then im going to buy them cause i need to read and this would be something that i would be willing to read. haha. thanks for that info im going to look into this more cause i still want to go sc but to understand all the lagistics would be great. oh and the reason why i stil want to go sc is cause i thought about it if sc werent good then why would MB and others put this into there cars?

 

[240SicknessX]

To the thread starter: This is something that you probably dont know and wont know until you get the car running. If you are going to run a roots super charger who will bring full boost by 2k or earlier I suggest you have something where you can tune the entire ignition map. There will be too much load on the engine at that low of rpm, you will have to pull alot of ignition advance so it will not detonate, I can speculate around 14 degrees from the naturally aspirated map. That kind of retard is not obtainable from a btm or base retard with out severely effecting your upper rpm performance.

making full boost under 3k in high gear is alot of load on the engine.

wow very interesting im going to see if i can get these from my libary, if not then im going to buy them cause i need to read and this would be something that i would be willing to read. haha. thanks for that info im going to look into this more cause i still want to go sc but to understand all the lagistics would be great. oh and the reason why i stil want to go sc is cause i thought about it if sc werent good then why would MB and others put this into there cars?

who the fuck is MB?

and purchase these books. usually go for 35$ each. Its the best money you will spend on your forced induction project.

 

[Devil Man]

To the thread starter: This is something that you probably dont know and wont know until you get the car running. If you are going to run a roots super charger who will bring full boost by 2k or earlier I suggest you have something where you can tune the entire ignition map. There will be too much load on the engine at that low of rpm, you will have to pull alot of ignition advance so it will not detonate, I can speculate around 14 degrees from the naturally aspirated map. That kind of retard is not obtainable from a btm or base retard with out severely effecting your upper rpm performance.

making full boost under 3k in high gear is alot of load on the engine.

who the fuck is MB?

and purchase these books. usually go for 35$ each. Its the best money you will spend on your forced induction project.

can i ask you this. if i put the stock m62 on there and dont change the boost on it, will it have full boost by 2k? i thought that it would happen higher up in the rpm the full boost that is. i was planning on having nunook tune my ecu since he has done a SC'd ka before. will msd make the timing advanced easier? i will deffinatly find these books they sound very informative. man i wish you lived closer cause i would like to talk to you in person instead. are you going to be there at the event the 7? i have so many questions haha

oh and MB is merceds benz

 

[ilida of cola]

Im reading "Scientific Design of Exhaust and Intake Systems" and my head hurts. Im trying to time this sound wave entering the combustion chamber while my cams are in overlap allowing a 100% fresh charge to go into the cylinder among other thigns. Im only on page 47.

I can understand why your head would hurt. How are you measuring this time?
Are you just listening for it? It would be nice to have a microphone integrated into a program that measures pressure fluctuations so that you could actually plot the wave and see exactly what it's doing at that given time. That would probably be the most precise, but in an ideal world, everything would be that convenient. Hopefully you'll see page 48 sooner than later.